Tue. Dec 6th, 2022

Today’s Republican Party has successfully grow to be an authoritarian political cult led by Donald Trump. His hundreds of thousands of followers — with their votes, cash, menace and potential or precise violence — have grow to be his main technique of controlling the get together and progressively undermining American democracy and society.

When Trump first emerged as a critical presidential candidate in 2016, Republican leaders and different right-wing elites believed they might management him and use him as a weapon of their revolutionary and reactionary wrestle. They had been each proper and unsuitable about that. 

Donald Trump is a political monster; Such leaders and forces have a thoughts and can all their very own.

As president, Trump enacted insurance policies that the Republican Party and bigger white proper have lengthy dreamed of imposing on the American individuals, most notably rolling again taxes on the wealthy and seizing full management of the Supreme Court. That was an excellent victory within the long-term marketing campaign to reverse the civil rights victories of the twentieth and twenty first century gained by Black and brown individuals, ladies, LGBTQ individuals, individuals with disabilities and different marginalized teams.  

But Donald Trump shortly grow to be extra highly effective than the Republican Party, and never essentially aligned with its leaders. His followers are way more loyal to him than to the get together itself. When Trump and his followers tried a violent coup on Jan. 6, 2021, many “mainstream” Republicans struggled to regulate to this new actuality. Many individuals within the get together understood that Trump was a fascist, maybe a traitor and in a bigger sense an existential menace to the United States. Within the Trump administration, there have been discussions about eradicating him from workplace by means of the twenty fifth Amendment. But finally most Republicans selected partisanship and energy over real patriotism and the frequent good. In doing so, they made themselves de facto brokers of American neofascism.

There had been just a few “conventional” Republicans and “principled” conservatives all through the Trump years who for quite a lot of causes spoke out in opposition to Donald Trump and walked away from the Republican Party and the MAGA motion. George Conway III was one of many loudest of these voices. He is a lawyer, a contributing columnist on the Washington Post and a founding member of the Lincoln Project. (He resigned from that group in 2020 to spend extra time together with his household.)

Conway is a longtime Republican who left the get together in 2018. By his personal account, he was a candidate for varied high-level positions within the Justice Department underneath the Trump administration. He is married to Kellyanne Conway, who was an adviser to Trump from 2017 to 2020.

In this wide-ranging dialog, Conway explains his perception that Donald Trump might lastly be prosecuted, convicted and maybe even imprisoned for violations of the Espionage Act and associated crimes. Contrary to the opinions of different authorized specialists and political observers, Conway believes that Trump’s ego won’t ever allow him to confess guilt as a part of a plea cut price settlement. He warns, nevertheless, that as Trump faces extra stress from the Department of Justice and different investigations into his apparent legal wrongdoing, he might order his followers to unleash violence and destruction.

Conway additionally displays on his personal earlier degree of denial concerning the hazard to the nation embodied by Trump and the Republican fascist motion — and discusses how he went from considering that Democrats and different members of “the left” had been “hysterical” to realizing that their warnings had been largely right.

Toward the tip of this dialog, Conway predicts that if Donald Trump faces incarceration or different critical punishment, he’ll flip in opposition to the Republican Party and search to destroy it in an act of revenge. Ultimately, Trump’s lasting legacy would be the destruction of the Republican Party because the political monster turns in opposition to its host and creator.

How are you feeling, given the nation’s democracy disaster and the rising neofascist tide? How do you make sense of all this? 

I do assume it is going to get higher. But it is going to worsen earlier than it will get higher. Trump is mainly a cornered animal. He’s obtained all these authorized proceedings bearing down on him. In addition, he’s dropping his contact and his connection to his public, as a result of his act has grow to be very tiresome. That explains why Trump is embracing the QAnon conspiracy. He’s doing that due to his narcissism: He’s feeling attacked, and for the primary time in his life, he’s going through actual penalties for his actions. The DOJ and different investigations have brought on Trump to endure a narcissistic damage. He is a pathological narcissist, and by going to the QAnon individuals he’s getting consideration and his want for narcissistic gasoline is being considerably happy. That additionally explains why Trump would by no means criticize the QAnon conspiracy cult earlier than. He likes individuals who like him. That is what actually issues to him. 

Trump is in a downward psychological, emotional and bodily spiral. His embrace of QAnon exhibits how excessive his deterioration is. But right here is the issue for the remainder of us: Donald Trump shouldn’t be going to go away instantly. He goes to attempt to use the electoral course of, and threats of violence, to regain energy and affect. Then Trump will say that he cannot management what individuals do as a result of they’re so indignant at how he’s being handled by Joe Biden, Merrick Garland, the DOJ, the assorted prosecutors and judges, the information media and so forth. Trump goes to make issues a lot worse on this nation earlier than issues lastly get higher. 

Trump is in a downward spiral. His embrace of QAnon exhibits how excessive his deterioration is. But the issue for the remainder of us is that he isn’t going away instantly.

If America had been truly wholesome, then Trump could be gone, a non-factor. In all chance, I imagine that Trump will get the Republican nomination in 2024, except he goes to jail earlier than then. If Trump is convicted or it seems to be like he’s going to be, he’ll attempt to take down as many individuals as attainable with him. That’s what malignant narcissists do. 

There are all these pronouncements from pundits that Trump is finished for and the whole lot goes to be OK. That’s wishful considering. Trumpism and neofascism can not simply be wished away.  

I hear you, however I imagine we must always take some solace, in that the reckoning is lastly coming. At the very least, the Mar-a-Lago paperwork investigation is probably the most harmful factor going through him. Almost from the second it got here out, I felt it was the shortest distance between him and an orange jumpsuit, for the easy motive that it’s a easy case.

The analogy I like to make use of is that this: Let’s think about that you’re the U.S. lawyer in New York, and also you’re investigating a mob boss. You’re placing collectively an enormous RICO case with plenty of crimes concerned, equivalent to murders and playing and mortgage sharking. It’s a sophisticated case and swiftly you get a cellphone name that there’s a jewel heist at Kennedy Airport. Guess who’s driving the truck? The Don, the boss. That’s virtually actually what occurred with Mar-a-Lago. 

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Given the main points of the case and all of the associated costs, I do not understand how the DOJ does not prosecute Trump. And I do not understand how Trump shouldn’t be convicted, particularly if he’s tried within the District of Columbia. I feel the hazard goes to return from the truth that the authorized course of will take at the least a yr. With all the opposite authorized peril Trump is going through, he’s going to threaten violence as a manner of getting out of bother. I do not know whether or not or not he can be as profitable as he was on Jan. 6, however there’s going to be some actual ache on this nation brought on by Trump calling for violence by his followers.  

Trump can also be going to trigger injury to the Republican Party. The get together is lastly going to understand that Trump will take them down with him. It goes to be very ugly throughout. In the tip, although, it is going to get higher. Once Trump is handled, there’s the opposite downside that should be confronted: Trump let all of the termites into the basement of the home. The Big Lie and the election deniers and all the numerous lunatics who’ve taken up residence within the Republican Party and at the moment are its base should be pushed out. We want two functioning, regular political events that help democracy on this nation. Right now, we solely have one, and that’s the Democrats. I do not know what is going on to occur subsequent — maybe the Republican Party will collapse and one thing higher will exchange it.  

Didn’t Donald Trump merely give Republicans and so-called conservatives permission to be their true selves? This did not occur in a single day. How do you clarify it? 

There was all the time that radical extremist fringe on the appropriate. That aspect didn’t dominate the Republican Party. Trump took benefit of that excessive aspect. The mainstream Republicans obtained pushed apart by a base that had grow to be whipped up into frenzy by the extremists. Trump took benefit of that opening.   

The right-wing media ecosystem can also be a big a part of the extremist flip, as a result of it discovered a option to become profitable by dragging individuals farther and farther away from actuality and making a thirst for disinformation and hatred. White child boomers who’re feeling indignant and resentful about how the nation is altering demographically are additionally a part of that extremist flip and the rise of Trump. There are many variables at play right here, and it is going to take a very long time to kind all of it out.

Donald Trump is rather more than a person. He is an emblem and an concept. What comes after him might be much more harmful.  

That is the large hazard. We might find yourself with somebody who’s as manipulative as Trump, however loads smarter. As a rustic, we now have been very fortunate that Donald Trump shouldn’t be that good. He may be very impulsive and never contemplative or strategic. What occurs if subsequent time there’s a demagogue who’s as immoral as Trump, however way more clever?  

How do you make sense of Trump’s corrupting energy? Why are individuals so drawn to him?

There are completely different explanations for the assorted teams of individuals on the appropriate. Some of them overlap. But we must always attempt to be particular. If you are speaking concerning the political class, the Republican management, they’re partly motivated by concern. Survival drives them. Republican elected officers know that if they are saying something in opposition to Trump, they could lose their primaries. Staying in workplace is what drives them. They do not wish to find yourself like Liz Cheney. She tells tales about how there have been so many Republican senators who would stroll as much as her and say, “Thank you for doing what you are doing.” Those identical Republican senators would then do nothing to defend her publicly, as a result of they’re afraid of Trump and his voters.   

The right-wing media makes cash off Trump and all of the battle. The political consultants are afraid of dropping enterprise and cash in the event that they cross Trump and his base. There’s plenty of intimidation concerned. As for Trump’s voters and followers, a lot of them aren’t that educated or select to insulate themselves within the right-wing echo chamber, the place they’re fed lies and disinformation and rage. They select to seal themselves off from actuality. That’s a sort of collective narcissism. One manner that Donald Trump sucks individuals in is that his voters and followers do not just like the people who find themselves criticizing him. Therefore they defend Trump it doesn’t matter what — even when what he’s doing is clearly unsuitable and indefensible. Trump’s individuals don’t wish to admit that they’re morally unsuitable.   

As a society, what can we do concerning the Trump cult?  

I actually do not know. I’m simply hoping that in some unspecified time in the future it is going to exhaust itself and fade away. But that’s not going to occur for some time, if in any respect. The solely factor the remainder of who aren’t within the Trump cult can do is to maintain telling the reality.

I completely come clean with the truth that I voted for Donald Trump and supported him in 2016. That was a grave ethical error on my half, and I personal it. I actually thought he would grow to be a greater individual. That was an insane factor to imagine.

I’ve a associated concern. One of the issues proper now on the left — and I perceive the foundation of the sentiment — is that when a Republican or another person on the appropriate lastly sees the sunshine about Trump, there’s a tendency to name them hypocrites, to assault them for supporting Trump and being a Republican. People assault Liz Cheney that manner, saying that she voted for Trump and supported his insurance policies. That’s true. But when individuals see the sunshine, it’s important to encourage them. You haven’t got to offer them a go for what they did previously, however it’s best to reward them for doing the appropriate factor now by standing up in opposition to Trump and what he represents.  

It’s onerous for an individual to show in opposition to Trump and depart the Republican Party. They are dropping their associates and social community. The get together was their house. We all are likely to do what different individuals round us do. We wish to be accepted by them. As human beings, we do not wish to admit our errors.  

Reflecting by myself habits, I completely come clean with the truth that I voted for Donald Trump and supported him in 2016. That was a grave ethical error on my half, and I personal it. I’m blissful — effectively, not blissful, however prepared — to confess my error. But the actual fact is, that some individuals cannot do it that simply.

For my half, I engaged in wishful considering. I actually thought that after Trump was president he would have some sort of realization or epiphany about what that accountability meant. I actually thought that Trump would grow to be a greater individual. Now I see that was an insane factor to imagine. It was ridiculous. I used to be participating in wishful considering, and by doing that I used to be projecting my idealistic values about patriotism and love of nation and selflessness onto Trump, who won’t ever comprehend these values. 

I lastly realized that there’s something deeply unsuitable with Donald Trump. I’m not skilled as a psychologist; I do not actually perceive how a thoughts like his works. But I’ve examine Hitler, Stalin and different tyrants. I did not make the preliminary connection between them and Trump, however after some time I lastly did.  

Given that you understand most of the individuals concerned, why did these Republican elites, insiders, journalists and the like not inform the reality about how harmful Trump actually was? They had been there. They witnessed all of it. They instructed individuals in non-public that Trump was unhinged and unfit. Yet, they stored quiet — after which wrote books about it.  

That has been the largest revelation for me. I had thought that if Trump turned out to be as unhealthy as individuals on the left had been saying, then he could be solid apart by the Republicans and his interior circle. I naively thought that I’d assist encourage individuals to talk up by talking out myself. By and enormous, most Republicans and different conservatives simply caught their heads within the sand. For me, that was one of the vital stunning issues about the previous few years. There are so many alternative causes that individuals do not do the appropriate factor. As all these books by journalists at the moment are revealing, individuals near Trump knew how harmful he’s, and did nothing.  

What does it imply to be a Republican proper now?  

I do not know what the Republican Party stands for now, apart from placating Trump. It does not even stand for America’s nationwide pursuits anymore.

I do not assume it actually means something proper now. For lots of people, it means supporting Trump. That’s one of many most important the reason why I left the Republican Party and registered as an unaffiliated voter in March of 2018.  At that time it was clear to me that the Republican Party had grow to be a Trump persona cult. Four years later, it is a lot worse. I do not know what the Republican Party stands for now, apart from placating Trump and opposing something that the Democrats do only for the sake of opposing them. There are not any actual ideas concerned. The Republican Party does not even stand for America’s nationwide pursuits anymore. Look at what some Republicans have been saying about Russia’s conflict in opposition to Ukraine.  

How can we stability political expediency versus authorized necessity? The regulation takes time, however Donald Trump is an imminent hazard to American society proper now. Something must be achieved, and we’re operating out of time. 

At the tip of the day, we now have to comply with the authorized system and apply it evenhandedly — however that must be achieved as expeditiously as attainable. The Justice Department has clearly come round to that understanding. They at the moment are increasing their investigations of Jan. 6, Trump’s different alleged crimes and associated issues on the highest ranges. I do not assume it is going to take them very lengthy to place collectively a case on the categorised paperwork. And I do not assume they’ve a selection, even when they needed to withstand prosecuting him. It’s going to be sooner moderately than later. Trump might simply be underneath each federal and state indictment in some unspecified time in the future between Election Day [Nov. 8] and New Year’s Day.

What do you assume goes to occur with these legal instances? Does he take a plea cut price? There’s this fantasy amongst some liberal of us that Trump does a perp stroll and goes to jail. I do not see that taking place. If something, Trump pays fines and takes a plea deal. Merrick Garland and the DOJ is not going to put a former president in jail. 

I do not imagine that Trump goes to plea cut price. I feel he might go to jail, however it’s extra possible that he’ll serve house confinement. In all chance, he can be convicted of a number of felonies. I do not know if there’s ever going to be a perp stroll, however I do not assume it is a fantasy both. There’s a great likelihood that Trump will find yourself with a felony conviction. I do know he has minimize offers in civil instances, however that is simply writing checks. To reiterate, I don’t imagine that Trump will plead out. This all goes a lot to the core of Trump’s id that he’ll attempt to tear the nation aside earlier than he settles certainly one of these legal instances.

That is a robust assertion. 

Donald Trump will incite violence on his behalf. He will attempt to fake it’s one thing spontaneous. Does Trump have sufficient energy and affect over his followers to threaten the republic? I do not assume so. But I do assume it is sufficient to be harmful. Trump has sufficient affect that individuals might get harm. 

What are you most involved about? And what, if something, are you hopeful about, relating to the nation’s future?

What retains me up at night time is the violence that Trump might doubtlessly trigger. The hazard of violence will improve because the 2024 election approaches. What offers me hope is that the authorized reckoning is coming. Donald Trump has introduced many individuals collectively. That is among the nice ironies of all this. People on the left and proper have come collectively to oppose Trump and his motion. I’m hopeful that the American individuals can be so exhausted by this complete saga that they are going to be drawn towards all of the issues that tie us collectively as a nation and other people. Of course we might disagree with each other, and accomplish that passionately. But ultimately we’re all Americans, and we now have extra in frequent than divides us. I hope we will get again to that and heal after Trump.

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